Curse

LifeInfusion · Sep 30, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I was grouping the other day for a Zaishen mission or Zaishen bounty... so we got a Panic mes (imba at the moment), SS necro (classic), Imbagon and some other things. The paragon made a point that they did not know why they were playing their paragon. Are paragons really that bad? Motivation is pretty mediocre given the updates to all the other classes but is command that bad?

I still run a Paragon hero with "Stand Your Ground!", "Go for the eyes!", "fall back!", empathic removal when I am with someone else and we're running a MM and Spirit spam. The paragon doesn't help that much in terms of damage in Hard mode, but in normal mode you can see the difference quite easily.

Go for the eyes on 14 command gives minions more crits, which doesn't help in HM but in NM it's pretty decent. Either way, "fall back!" makes them get to their destination faster. In a physical heavy team, anthem of envy helps too but I mostly play casters and with other casters. This makes most anthems (attack skill dependent) useless for the most part since heroes don't sync attack skills with things like Anthem of Envy or Anthem of Disruption.

My attributes were split something along the lines of 12+1+1 command, 8+1 leadership, 10+1 spear. (other option is 11+1+1/11+1/8+1 or 12+1+1/6+1/11+1) It's a shame that leadership is 1 energy every 2 ranks.

I did some experimenting running a second paragon with tactics and Defensive Anthem, "To the Limit!" to build adrenaline every battle, "Shields up!" (expensive on a warrior, manageable on a paragon) in replacement of aegis and ward against melee in the midline (since defensive anthem doesn't worry about enchantment stripping or needing to ball up). It didn't seem to have as much of an effect as the command paragon and required a heavy investment in tactics and leadership. Without "Go for the eyes!" spamming, the energy was a bit tight. The last time I tinkered with it, Watch Yourself was still +20 armor at rank 6, so it could be used as an energy engine. Now it is on 4 recharge and doesn't stack with "stand your ground". "Charge" is another option on a P/W but given how incoming got buffed and cripple isn't spammed in PVE I don't see it as a superior choice.

I'm a big fan of shouts in general since they don't pause spear-chucking damage (investing the attributes leaves 10-11 spear mastery). Also unlike the warrior heroes they can switch targets with 1 aggro circle range which puts them in front of casters (1.2 aggro circle).

So is the paragon really pushed into one build? (Go for the eyes, save yourselves, there's nothing to fear, spear of fury, spear of lightning, etc.)

galactic · Sep 30, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

everything is cookie cutter

twenty ten

Cuilan · Sep 30, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

They can daggger and scythe spam like an assassin or dervish, but the only advantage you get from doing that is giving your party energy and perhaps TNTF.

Shrimz · Sep 30, 2010, 03:24 AM // 03:24

basically imba or gtfo. any profession kicks ass in NM, so no one really cares about that.

and in HM, you really just cant beat the defensive power of the imba with anything else the para can do.

Essence Snow · Sep 30, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Running para heros is generally bad mainly b/c there are better options. Yes the main draw for human para is Imbagdon.....there is nothing else that a para can run that is nearly as useful imo although I don't use spear of lightning. If paras didnt have TNtF and were able to take advantage of SY, I dare say they'd be worse than dervs.

MArcSinus · Sep 30, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I usually take "Stand Your Ground" and 2 other command skills on another hero usually on a necro as optional skills which works nice.

I do have a Paragon character which I run racway with but I almost always play Imbagon anyway.

Tender Care · Sep 30, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Paragon is not only Imbagon....pls stop talking shit!

Obviously for a normal setup, imbagon is the best choice to play HM, but there are also many others builds you can run.

DMG: in pve you can spam a single combo like "You move like a dwarf", "I am the strongest", "Find their weakness" and Spear of Fury and inflict like 150 dmg in 1 second.

Protection: leadership 14----> Angelic bond, Angelic protection + They are on fire spammable with SF ele or Burning finale on a meele + SY + TNTF-----> Beat me if you can

Plus a para hero with stand your ground.....almost 100% dmg reduction...

Motivation does not suck---> finale of restoration combined with The Power is Yours and SY. Chorus of restoration even triggers itself.

Problem is that ppl only think that paragon can play imbagon. Like assassin can only farm with SF. Ritualist is only SoS. Rangers only Barrage and so on.

You are too close-minded imo!

Khomet Si Netjer · Sep 30, 2010, 12:10 PM // 12:10

oh dear. much has already been said on this topic but I'll summarize.

* paragons cannot deal as much damage as any other physical damage dealer.
* paragons cannot buff other character's damage as well as the necromancer, ritualist, or monk. paragon should be the best at this but he is not.
* paragons cannot heal nearly as well as the monk or ritualist.
* paragons cannot protect their party well without the use of PVE skills.

so although the paragon is versatile and has multiple roles within a group, he isn't very good at any of them. the paragon isn't #1 at anything except the infamous 'imbagon' defensive build which relies on PVE skills. The paragon skills themselves are not that great.

Tender Care · Sep 30, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Paragons works well with other paragons...combinations that other profession cannot use at 100%. that's their pro!

nomma · Sep 30, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

you nare right paragons cant deal as much dmg in a spike as some of the other classes abut you are wrong about the buffs... necros monks and rits dont buff. they enchant. this is a major difference from the para. once a paras shout is on its on. there are alot less skills out there to int shouts and chants vs everything thats out there for enchants and spells. another key factor to a para is that any "buff" they cast is applied to everyone within a certain radius. very few enchants have this ability and usually have some draw back. for example and orders necro has to sacrifice health, yes we have over come this, so when people first started playing this people hated it. a necro was to only mm or ss. and on the note of the para cant do anything without pve skills.... well all of gw cant dop anything without pve skills in the build some where.... its stupid. however its PvE not PvP so it doesnt matter use what you have avaliable. be versitile.

and i forgot to add that i love playing para i have 3 of em. and they are actually amazing for a condition spike.

khezial tahr · Sep 30, 2010, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I've run around with a triple para team and it was great. We walked through several vanqs like it was nothing. With the right team, paragons just make the game easier.

Essence Snow · Sep 30, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

Paragon is not only Imbagon....pls stop talking shit!

I'm not convinced that stating the obvious=talking shit.

Quote:

Obviously for a normal setup, imbagon is the best choice to play HM, but there are also many others builds you can run.

Ofc you can run other builds, but they are lacking severly.

Quote:

DMG: in pve you can spam a single combo like "You move like a dwarf", "I am the strongest", "Find their weakness" and Spear of Fury and inflict like 150 dmg in 1 second.

Okay....now spam that, so DPS doesn't stink. 1 chain in 10 secs doesn't make a dmg build good.

Quote:

Protection: leadership 14----> Angelic bond, Angelic protection + They are on fire spammable with SF ele or Burning finale on a meele + SY + TNTF-----> Beat me if you can

Plus a para hero with stand your ground.....almost 100% dmg reduction...

Remember the point of Imbagdon is upkeep and fueling SY and TntF. Take away the adrenaline skills and you're not as effective. Taking ToF works well I'll give you that, but the angelics<adren skills. Also SYG isn't really worth taking if someone else is spamming SY b/c they don't stack.

Quote:

Motivation does not suck---> finale of restoration combined with The Power is Yours and SY. Chorus of restoration even triggers itself.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If motivation skills had less casting times, less conditional requirements, and better benefits, I might agree, but they don't. So, imo they actually do suck.

Quote:

Problem is that ppl only think that paragon can play imbagon. Like assassin can only farm with SF. Ritualist is only SoS. Rangers only Barrage and so on.

You are too close-minded imo!

Again of course one can run things other than Imbadgon on a para, but it simply won't be as effective. The margin is pretty large and that's the whole issue. If the other options were closer in effectiveness there wouldn't be an issue.

chuckles79 · Sep 30, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Two things I see. First, Nomma, Rits do not enchant. They use weapon spells which are unstrippable. Also their spirits are very effective in PvE since the passive ones do not usually draw aggro and the offensive ones do (good for bodyblocking).

I agree that Racway is not effective in HM. However it rules anything in NM including FoW where it's awesome.

The main disappointment in paragons is that they are useless without PvE only skills...All except TntF are either as good or better on other professions.
There are some individual skills in the command line that are pretty good, but I notice that many of the "meta" team builds call for necros and other professions to go para secondary and use those skills.

The facts are that paras are physical oriented (HM is anti-physical in 90% of areas) and outside of the Command line (that other professions can use) they are gimped.

The imbagon (named for being "imbalanced") is the only balanced build.

Dagger spam works in situations, but it's inferior to a sin. The only time I've had it work great was when I did the Deep. 12 people and most casters, the TPiY skill was a godsend (especially since we didn't do meta and had no BiP).

Other than that, going anything other than imbagon is essentially a wasted player slot.

Tender Care · Sep 30, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Again: Imbagon is the best setup to keep your party alive, most of all in HM. But as any other class it deal dmg as well.

@Essence Snow: i totally disagree with you. If you wanna play defensive para setup is ok to use only SY+TNTF, but this is the same lame-ass build everyone uses. Be creative!
With Angelics skills i just did an example. You can play Defensive Anthem with casters team. You can play condition removal. You can play condition spamming. You can also run Justiciar Thommis farm with a paragon

And as said the post above this one: paragons works well with other paragons. Don't wanna say another time all i did with 8 paras team (FoW HM for example). If you play with mixed team just play imbagon and everyone's happy.

I agree with less effectiveness of killing speed than a necro or others but, you can resist much more than other class in a long fight. Paras are great survivors

chuckles79 · Sep 30, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I agree Tender, paras are largely designed to work with other paras; and I REALLY want to see how you can farm ANYTHING let alone Thommis with a para. It's fine if you don't want to post the entire build, but a few hints would be appreciated.

I think the main gripes are that paras are lumped in with rangers in that they don't do any one thing very well. In trying to remove condition spreading in GvG and HA, Anet killed the original benefit of being a ranger, and the motivation/leadership lines in PvE. If Anet were to lessen condition removal of PvE monsters, and revert the entire motiv. and leadership lines back to release status; they'll save themselves 2-3 skill balance updates and end a lot of hurt.

Neith · Sep 30, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I agree Tender, paras are largely designed to work with other paras; and I REALLY want to see how you can farm ANYTHING let alone Thommis with a para. It's fine if you don't want to post the entire build, but a few hints would be appreciated.

I think the main gripes are that paras are lumped in with rangers in that they don't do any one thing very well. In trying to remove condition spreading in GvG and HA, Anet killed the original benefit of being a ranger, and the motivation/leadership lines in PvE. If Anet were to lessen condition removal of PvE monsters, and revert the entire motiv. and leadership lines back to release status; they'll save themselves 2-3 skill balance updates and end a lot of hurt.

My co leader farms and runs on his paragon, he has told me he used to farm realm of torment. And no I have never bothered to ask him for builds as I know he likes to keep those to himself as much as possible.

Khomet Si Netjer · Sep 30, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neith

My co leader farms and runs on his paragon, he has told me he used to farm realm of torment. And no I have never bothered to ask him for builds as I know he likes to keep those to himself as much as possible.

I'm not sure which build he was using but I used to farm Stygian Veil with a paragon... just the first wave of touchers, and it used Raven Blessing, so not really a 'paragon' build at all. In any case you know I love paragons but they are not a solo-friendly profession.

Cuilan · Sep 30, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Maybe someone out there did find a good build or two like Tender Care suggests. Never seen anyone show or use such a build in any of the guild or PUG groups I've been in. Also never seen anyone who understands the build well enough to explain and defend it for adding to PvX. So as far as I'm concerned, paragon players can't expect others to really request or to be okay with anything else. Maybe they'll all come out of hiding and PUG after a skill update.

Neith · Sep 30, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I'm not sure which build he was using but I used to farm Stygian Veil with a paragon... just the first wave of touchers, and it used Raven Blessing, so not really a 'paragon' build at all. In any case you know I love paragons but they are not a solo-friendly profession.

Khomet ask him, like I said I've never asked him what the build is....you know who it is.

LifeInfusion · Oct 01, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I'm not sure which build he was using but I used to farm Stygian Veil with a paragon... just the first wave of touchers, and it used Raven Blessing, so not really a 'paragon' build at all. In any case you know I love paragons but they are not a solo-friendly profession.

They aren't meant to be a solo profession. The topic isn't about soloing.

Regardless, it's harder to mess up a paragon than it is to mess up a caster. Also paragon heroes don't run around like nutcases unlike warriors.

I see some posts on putting command on a caster (necro or other). I think I will try that, but part of the advantage of the paragon is that it has 80+16 base armor, which is the highest other than a warrior, in case "all hell breaks loose".

"When all hell breaks loose, a commanding Paragon shines as a beacon of light, driving back the forces of darkness." - GW Nightfall